President Streets Drainage Project
When dealing with the kind of issues that we deal with here on the Blog, it is always a concern that I am perceived as someone who is forever critical about what others are doing. Lets face it, it is human nature to not comment when things are going the way that we wish them to, and to get very vocal when they are not. I am no different. Plus it is the controversial issues that keep people checking in here at the Blog and, as you have seen from what we are doing with the MNBM and Birches letter writing campaign, keeping people reading is all part of the plan. Numbers are important and keeping people motivated, even more so.
It is imperative to our credibility that we resist the urge to be monotonously critical.
Last night Jeff and I attended the informational meeting regarding the proposed President Streets Drainage project that was held by the Village at the Bayville Intermediate School. The engineering firm H2M gave a presentation to describe the preliminary plans to address the flooding that often occurs on Bayville Ave. when high tide and a significant precipitation event occur simultaneously. The plan is to install a substantial number of leaching pools in series along Bayville Ave. from School St. to (I believe) Bay Beach Ave. The purpose of these pools is to capture as much rainwater as possible to be leached back into the ground water prior to it reaching the low points near the President Streets where the flooding occurs.
Equally as important, this project will reduce the amount of pollutants that will enter Mill Neck Creek, by capturing what is called the "first flush". This is the first of the storm water to run into the catch basins during a major rainstorm, and more often than not these leaching pools will collect all of the runoff from lesser events. The first flush has, by far, the highest concentrations of pollutants including litter, debris, silt, petroleum products and more. This project will undoubtedly result in far fewer contaminants entering our waters. Most of the pollutants can then be removed during routine maintenance of the leaching pools.
Mayor Siegel and the Board of Trustees are to be commended for their efforts in this area. They have a long history of making these improvements and an outstanding track record of obtaining grants for this purpose. In addition, holding meetings such as this during the design phase, when people can make suggestions and voice concerns when they may actually have a chance to be addressed, is the proper way to keep the community involved. It was unfortunate that more did not choose to do so, as attendance was less than spectacular.
The only disappointment had more to do with Nassau County than with the Village. Unfortunately there are no plans at this time for the Nassau County catch basins to be up-graded and retrofitted with litter excluding devices to keep litter from entering the drainage system, and subsequently the Bay, in the first place. This would be Nassau County’s responsibility as the basins are theirs.
I certainly hope that Mayor Siegel and the Board of Trustees continue to make these projects a priority in the future. There is still much to be done in this area.
Barry E. Lamb
Bayville
Barry, Could you elaborate on where and when the project will be done?
Is it a federal project?
You and Jeff should be commended as well. You are not elected officials and what you are doing here on this blog is spectacular.
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Thanks Margaret!
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Thank You Margaret,
The project runs from School St., all along the shoulder areas of Bayville Ave., to Bay Beach Blvd. The leaching pools will be installed in clusters (linear) at many locations along the shoulders and should allow for two way traffic for the vast majority of the time. Tentative schedule is for the major installation portion of the project to run from August 07 - November 07.
Most of the money is federal funds (TEA Funds)being administered by the state. A smaller portion of the funds are provided by the Village.
I hope that that is all accurate, I am working strictly from memory.
Barry
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The Northender has coverage of the drainage project online at:
http://www.northender.com/feature_story_details.jsp?id=909
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On July 19th a representative of H2M Group gave a presentation about the President's St. Drainage project to the general meeting of the Pine Island Park Association. At that time it was disclosed that the project was delayed and would not begin in August as planned. The H2M rep could not make a commitment on the start date, saying that some more issues had to be worked out, but they believe that the work may begin sometime in the fall of 2007. Other than the delay, the project plan has not changed from what was initially presented at the Village meeting.
Mayor Siegel and a few of the Village officers and trustees were also present at this presentation. Along with the representative of H2M Group, they participated in the question and answer session after the presentation.
I've been a vocal critic of the administration, especially in regards to the mismanagement of the Water Department, but I have to give credit where credit is due - the drainage project a step in the right direction. This project may not totally prevent flooding caused by extreme high tides and torrential rains during hurricanes or persistent Northeasters, but it should eliminate or greatly reduce flooding caused by thunderstorms storms and heavy rainy periods.
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My family lived in bayville for years flooding by the president street is something your gonna have to deal with it Come's with living at sea level .try living down on June ave in the 50"s. Bayville is nothing but a sand bar. So either live with the occasional flooding or buy a house up higer maybe off of Mountain ave like familys like mine did years ago
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The flooding on Bayville Avenue by the Presidents Streets has been going on since my family has been in Bayville, since the 50's. Flooding has always been there. The problem is and I know this will make a lot of people angry BUT when the floods come which is at high tide, and heavy rains, the water all went into Bayville Avenue, BUT there was always the Boulevard to detour the cars so they did not have to go through the floods, the Boulevard is the road which runs along the sound side beach by the President Street and has always been a LEGAL road, until the people wanted to close the road and put up flower pots instead. If you notice people that live on the President Streets never complain about the floods, Pine Island knows this but it was aloud to happen just like some other person who put grass and large rocks on a legal road in Bayville, go look at the maps. I think I am going to put a blockade at the end of my block cause I don't want traffic to drive past my house, lets see how that ends up. Another thing is when the floods come wait about 1/2 hour and they go down, but instead obnoxious people have to drive right through the middle at high speeds if you have a truck be considerate to others and drive slow and on the side ot take turns.
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I am the current President of Pine Island Park Association (PIPA), and I want to correct the uninformed and inaccurate comments that recently appeared on this web blog.
First, the Boulevard was NEVER a 'legal' PUBLIC road. The Boulevard and all of the streets and the beach within the borders of PIPA are PRIVATE. If anyone doubts this, we can provide the title to prove PIPA’s uncontested and continuous PRIVATE ownership of our lands and roads since 1923. Land titles are also available from Nassau County. The Village of Bayville and the public do not own or maintain PIPA streets; these streets are owned and maintained by the members and residents of PIPA.
Years ago, whenever Bayville Avenue flooded, many people trespassed by driving on PIPA-owned roads during storms and flooding, and our roads were heavily damaged by the traffic. This damage, especially on The Boulevard, which is a pea-gravel road, often amounted to many thousands of dollars. The Boulevard was not built to support anything other than the very limited traffic of the few residents who actually live on The Boulevard and only have access to their property from The Boulevard; it was primarily designed as a pedestrian walkway. The Village of Bayville has never paid to repair or maintain our roads, even after damage caused by traffic detouring through PIPA. PIPA residents and members incur a great expense to maintain and repair the roads that they own.
Secondly, PIPA roads, because they are privately owned, may represent a different situation from other roads in Bayville where some obstacles and barriers may be situated on publicly owned land. Just because some road barriers may be illegal does not automatically mean that all road barriers are illegal. In each situation, it totally depends on who owns and maintains the roads in question.
Would those who think they have a right to trespass on, and damage other's roads and property think that it’s OK if someone else purposely drove over their private driveways and front lawns and didn’t pay to repair the damage they caused? The answer is obvious, no one would put up with such an intrusion. This is why the barriers will remain on The Boulevard.
It is our hope that the President’s Street drainage project will alleviate the flooding and the very temporary delays and inconvenience that flooding causes for all residents of Bayville. The Pine Island Park Association enthusiastically supports Mayor Siegel’s and the Village Board of Trustees’ efforts to bring this much needed project to fruition.
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Sorry John, but I have to disagree with you. NYS Village Law states the following:
§ 6-626 Streets by prescription. All lands within the village which have been used by the public as a street for ten years or more continuously, shall be a street with the same force and effect as if it had been duly laid out and recorded as such.
The fact is that public funds have been used to plow and sand those roads, collect garbage by driving down those roads and install utilities in them (water main).
I am all but certain that if this ended up in court, these streets would be found to be "privately maintained streets in the public domain" just as Shore Rd. was. It should be noted that Shore Road in that area is actually on individual lots that run right to the bay - truly private land. Still it was found to be in the public domain.
For more on this, please go back to prior Blog entries:
http://bayvilleblog.com/2006/11/12/the-roads-of-bayville.aspx
http://bayvilleblog.com/2007/01/21/roads-revisited.aspx
Barry
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Actually, Barry, this HAS ended up in court, several times, beginning with the formation of Pine Island Park Association (PIPA ) in 1923. The courts ruled that the PIPA streets ARE indeed private.
In your article, entitled ‘Roads Revisited’ (published here on January 21, 2007), you wrote about the precedents involved: [“...unless you have title to the road, it cannot be a truly private road... Check your property survey and see if it includes the road, or half the road. More likely, it shows your property ending at the edge of the roadway. Does the association hold the deed separately for the roadway? If you can show ownership, then the factors you referred to in your post regarding maintenance and repair come into play and your argument may have merit...”] PIPA does own title to the land under the roads that we built and maintain.
The privacy challenges in the past were about access to the beach, not merely use of the roads. The law only allows unfettered access to ocean waters and beaches, not to inland waters and beaches. New York State and Federal laws define Long Island Sound as inland waters. Private ownership rights have always been upheld in cases dealing with land fronting Long Island Sound. PIPA employs private guards during the summer and they have received the full support of the Nassau County police whenever they have had to deal with trespassers. Our privacy is assured because our deed clearly says that we own the land, it was never seized or appropriated by the Village. As I stated previously, the continuous maintenance and repair of our streets is paid for privately by members of PIPA.
Even if the foregoing were in doubt (it is not) does anyone think it's ethical or right that our residents pay from their own pockets to maintain our streets and that others should have the right to use them and damage them without having to share in that expense?
Lastly, you mentioned Shore Road as an example, but it is not the same situation. Shore Road offers the only access to some homes, and therefore the right of access cannot be impeded. In legal terms it is called an ‘easement.’ No such easement exists or is necessary in the case of PIPA roads, as the restriction from using them does not prevent access to any public or non-PIPA area. There is adequate convenience to all public areas via Bayville Avenue. The core piece of the argument for public access has to do with the public not being able to get access to public areas otherwise. This is not the case in regards to PIPA roads.
Finally, thanks once again to you and Jeff for your time and effort in creating and maintaining the Bayville Blog. It serves our community well to be able to have these discussions in an open and civil forum. I hope no one ever tries claim credit for the work and expense you’ve put into it, or take it away from you, or to do whatever they want to it without your approval or somehow compensating you.
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they are roads~ they only look like lawns because they were illegally blocked and planted on! do you have your own mail, water, garbage, snow removal, utilities services etc ~ or do you utilze the 'public' ones? and not for nothing the condition of the boulevard is atrocious and there's no 'public traffic' on it~ so John, your arguments sort of weak as far as the maintenace & repair goes~ there are many roads in bayville privately maintained with public access~ get over it
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John,
Please read the following post that was originally posted on the "Roads of Bayville" thread. A lot of things have changed since 1923. In fact, I'm relatively sure that NYS Village Law had not even been written at that time.
Again, I don't care what we call the streets, or that you don't allow parking, but when you close down a road, especially one that can serve as an alternate route in a flood or other emergency, you are asking for a court case. I also have a problem with being accosted by a security guard when walking down the beach, or by one of your residents when walking down one of "your" streets. I pay to have those streets plowed in the winter etc. so I have a problem with that.
It is the assertion of your "right" to limit access to these roads that threatens it. The most important of these for your residents is the ability to limit parking - you should stick to that before you lose them all.
Anyway, here's the post I mentioned:
winfro wrote:
Bayvillian Re: your Saturday Jan. 20th 2007 6:02 PM memo
If memory serves me correctly, Chestnut Hill was a 1980's Bayville lawsuit concerning Dickerson Avenue where the owners on the northern end of the road wanted to block access to a new development on the southern end. The criteria established therein for private verses public road, has been cited in later court decisions.
Evidence showed that Dickerson Avenue had become a public road by the Village installing water mains and fire hydrants, collecting garbage and providing snow removal WITHOUT providing actual road repair. By providing the above listed services, during the prescription period, the Village took control of the road.
I would suggest that those interested in this discussion on Bayville's roads obtain a copy of the court's Jakobson v. Chestnut Hill decision, before the discussion spirals out of control. I believe it will be an eye-opener for many.
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Dear John,
First and foremost ALL STREETS in Bayville are PRIVATE. We all pay to have our roads maintained, each and every person that lives in Bayville pays to maintain his or hers own streets,or it goes on their taxes, so you are not so PRIVATE. You have trash pick up, snow removal, sanding all that Bayville tax payers pay for. I am not asking to use your beach, all I am saying is that the Blvd. was always used for Bayville Avenue flooding, it's not going to be used everyday and the wear and tear would not be that much. The facts are the facts. Yes I do think it is ethical to open the roads during the floods, which happens maybe 1 - 2 times a year, I pay out of my pocket to have my streets maintained and lots of people use them, that's not the point it's a matter of consideration for the people of Bayville and allowing them to drive threw during floods. You are wrong no matter how you look at it, read the laws of the village before making your statements, it's not like people are going to use the roads all the time, it's for emergency's only. I don't know how they got away with it anyway, talk about ethical?????
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To be sure of hitting the target, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target.
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We make a living by what we get, but we make a life by what we give.
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A man sooner or later discovers that he is the master-gardener of his soul, the director of his life.
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